20:04:43 mine, too, just to give you a bit of an intro before we get into our main event.
20:04:50 I mean that great natural and scale value project management has the same name as our nonprofit organization, which is the for for Angelus Project and program leaders, agile and enterprise coaches who live by the agile mindset and
20:05:03 want to share their knowledge of all things agile for the benefit of the community.
20:05:10 Being based Out of Silicon Valley are founding numbers, have a vast network of agile leaders to bring to you here.
20:05:15 In this meeting Forum. If you'd like to gain some angels experience yourself.
20:05:20 You can do so by visiting our website where you can intern on one of our yeah working to maintain and modernize our website named Silicon Valley Project Management.
20:05:34 Our mission there is to create next Gen. leaders one of our members here in in the chat.
20:05:40 Now we'll we'll pop the link in there are many small wins to be had, each and every sprint at Sbc.
20:05:46 And It's a joy, to experience but today we have an epic one for you, as we have the highly esteemed veteran of the Agro community, and with that it's my pleasure to introduce Bob gallon
20:05:56 Bob's a natural practitioner trainer coach based in caring North Carolina.
20:06:03 He helps guide companies and teams and their adoption of their their organizational shifts towards the agile ways of thinking and work.
20:06:12 Bob has been doing that since the late 1990 s experience He's, the Director of Agile practice at energy technologies.
20:06:21 The leading business Agility Transformation Company. Bob is also president and head coach at Rg.
20:06:27 Cg: boutique agile coaching firm.
20:06:32 Bob frequently speaks at international counties, and professional groups on topics related to agile software development testing scaling and organizational leadership.
20:06:41 He's the certified enterprise angel coach; how one trainer and an active member of the agile and scrum alliances he's published 4 agile centered books starting with as a reflections in 2,000
20:06:52 and 12, the 3 pillars of agile quality and testing strong product ownership, and his latest book.
20:07:00 It just came out this year with the stellar title of extraordinarily bad assault.
20:07:06 Coaching his website is our gallon dot com he's a prolific writer and blogger angel dash moose, dot com.
20:07:16 I'll go ahead and add those links to the zoom chat.
20:07:19 I'm sure you're all looking forward to hearing how to enhance your value as well.
20:07:23 So I'm going to hand it over to Bob now?
20:07:26 Staggerers. Bobby, how are You done today i'm fantastic!
20:07:29 Thank you, Nicholas, for that wonderful intro and everyone we're gonna dive in quickly.
20:07:34 I have a lot to cover in a relatively short but but absolutely period of time.
20:07:43 So let me so hopefully, you could all see that and we're gonna talk about what good looks like the port quadrants of product ownership.
20:07:52 And let's just tie it in not going to talk about myself.
20:07:56 So? why quadrants and why even explore it?
20:07:59 Product. Ownership has been around since the genesis of scrubbing and scrum has been around since the the white paper that described scrum was introduced in 1,996.
20:08:09 So scrum probably actively being used since the late nineties.
20:08:15 Maybe 2,000 and that term has been around so the term scrum master and product of.
20:08:19 So that's 20 over 20 years and you would think that people would clearly understand product ownership and clearly understand all the dynamics around it.
20:08:30 In 20 years or more, and I think they somewhat do but they're Still, I think they're still misunderstandings.
20:08:36 So that's why I developed the score quadrup final.
20:08:39 So I think the role is still misunderstood There's a dynamic in the role at least in my experience.
20:08:45 That's somewhat tough, because I think it has an hourly facing part in an inverly facing part like a teamward part and an hourly facing part to customers and balancing that could be really challenging i'm
20:08:57 still hearing in businesses. people say, Oh, can you know can I have a product owner manage 5 teams or 10 teams, so it's still not everyone looks at it as a really deep, rich, full-time role I do school come
20:09:10 into play, they could lose their balance. And And really why?
20:09:16 I want to talk about. the 4 quadrants, too, is, I think, this.
20:09:18 The role is so crucial to team. success and organization success right about delivering value the product owners is a It's a real, It's a real big deal.
20:09:28 It's a real big deal role, and I want to I think it deserves attention, and it deserves analysis.
20:09:35 So here's my quadrants please don't get triggered in any of my language. i'm gonna like i'm gonna use the term project management as a quadrant and some of you are going to say Oh, he can't be an angel he's
20:09:46 mentioning Project managers in the same breath that's something's wrong with him.
20:09:49 So don't trigger on my terminology or anything like that.
20:09:54 Just sort of get to the essence of the quadras.
20:09:57 So the first part is the product management. Quadrant.
20:10:00 Second quadrant of product ownership is what I call project management.
20:10:04 It's around execution and delivery there I I think part of product ownership is leadership.
20:10:13 Maybe a little later, i'm not talking about hierarchical organizational leadership. I'm talking about visionary leadership championing leadership so to inspire and engage, and then the business hour analysis quadrant is
20:10:27 probably the most easy to understand to me, that's the the building validate a quadrant, and i'm going to sort of go into each quadrant and and explore it a little bit to give you a sense of what are
20:10:39 the dynamics. I want everyone to grab a piece of paper So there's this: i'm an old school guy. So if you could grab a piece of paper and a writing instrument like a a tactile like a it's called
20:10:52 a pet pencil or a pen. if you could grab one of those things and get ready. and what you could do on the paper is draw quadrants, because i'm gonna ask you to to take some notes in each
20:11:03 quadrant, so that's just just make just draw too.
20:11:09 2 lines. so quadrant one so what i'm going to do is i'm going to give you an essence of the quadrant, but I want you to make it your own and i'll explain it in each quadrant I want you to make
20:11:18 notes about what is the quadrant from your context point of view?
20:11:23 In some of these terms I might use you're like Well, that doesn't that's not relevant for me.
20:11:27 That's fine then don't include it in your quadrant definition. and and you might say Hey, Bob, you missed this this and this and that.
20:11:34 I'm that's fine add it to your quadrant So we're gonna tailor it to your context to your current context.
20:11:42 So when I think a quadrant one and product management, I think of things like this: the champion for the product, an evangelist for the product internally in externally, is one aspect, establishing
20:11:54 division. What are we trying to do, and what are we not trying to do right?
20:11:59 And and looking at those boundary conditions release roadmaps, communicating, developing and and communicating.
20:12:07 We release road maps as part of that managing stakeholder.
20:12:09 Expectations. Everyone would they what's realistic what's feasible?
20:12:13 When are we gonna land this thing? business case in Roi I think in terms of that?
20:12:19 If if you're in some companies that may be a hard roi heart business case, it may be pages of pages.
20:12:24 If you're an entrepreneurial startup and maybe just a few notes.
20:12:28 This is what we're trying to achieve How Are we gonna measure that.
20:12:31 How are we gonna measure success? How are we going to measure utilization or usage?
20:12:36 Are we gonna make sure that what are we going to measure supporting marketing and sales?
20:12:40 If you have such things, so if her does everyone get it?
20:12:45 This is this sort of more outward nature to this? Are you getting a sense for that?
20:12:48 Probably outward to the market, outward to the organization, outward to stakeholders, engaging customers and getting feedback from them.
20:12:56 Product management activities. Now this is not meant to say these are the only things in there like, I said.
20:13:01 I want you to develop your own view. i'm a product owner in this company.
20:13:07 This is what product management stuff means to me, and you can copy some of mine, and you can add and change and delete some of your own.
20:13:17 Now one of the things that I wanted to do here is there's there's a company called Pragmatic marketing. and they do training.
20:13:23 They have certifications in training, they're what I think up for decades.
20:13:28 They're what I think of as the quintessential definition of product marketing and product management that outwardly facing skill.
20:13:37 There used to be people that that was you know before it's crown product owners.
20:13:41 There were product managers. I hope that resonates with folks that were that was their job title.
20:13:45 Well, what did they do? Well, pragmatic marketing really defined that this this flow chart defines something like 30 plus activities that align with product management.
20:13:59 And the reason I bring it up here is just this quadrant you haveing on the company and depending on the contact system depending on the needs can can be a full-time job.
20:14:07 Does that resonate with the right there's a lot of stuff in product management?
20:14:12 And what we wanna do is identify all of that stuff that aligns with the product owner role.
20:14:16 So picking me. I remember when I was I i've written a book on Product ownership, and the first edition was in 2,009, and I I encountered this this flow chart.
20:14:29 Then, and I looked at product ownership tasks, responsibilities as defined by the scrum guide, and I mapped them in here, and only like 10 to 12.
20:14:38 As I recall 10 to 13, I think of the product ownership stuff fell into product management.
20:14:43 What that says is there's, things that product. ownership that are outside the scope of that that still need to be done in certain organizations project product product management activities?
20:14:56 So it can be a rich quadrant on its own.
20:14:58 So Now what I want all of you to do is i'm gonna give you about 60 s, and i'm i'm gonna come back here, and I want you to populate I want you to define your quadrant one the theme
20:15:10 is product management activities, and I want to make it your.
20:15:13 I want you to make it your own. just take notes about what are some ad changes and deletes, or you can accept mine as is that's fine.
20:15:21 The second ask for you is how much time if you are a product owner. I want you to look at yourself and answer these time questions for yourself.
20:15:31 If you're not a product owner but you're in an organization as that has product owners, they just guess from the organizational point of view.
20:15:38 So I want you to. 10 to 10% time increments.
20:15:43 Make the quadrant your own, And then the 10% time increments.
20:15:47 How much time are we spending in this quadrant, and how much time should we spend in that quarter?
20:15:54 Everyone with me so like we're spending 20% and we should spend maybe 40% there that's what our market needs in order to do a really, really what maybe I say badass job maybe to do a really bad ass job
20:16:07 of it, everyone with me. so making your own in that quadrant, make some notes, and then how much time am I?
20:16:13 Or are we spending there? and how much time am I, or are we?
20:16:16 Should we spend there, and i'll let you think about that
20:16:51 And put some thought. Don't just put numbers there to please Bob Galen. I want you to be thoughtful.
20:16:57 I want you to make this quadrant your own for your organizational context, but I suspect that you have these kinds of activities cool.
20:17:07 I want to move to quadrant 2 and you can be scribbling as we go.
20:17:11 We're gonna do this for each of the quadrants Quadrant 2 is the what I think of as a project management quadrant.
20:17:19 What are some of what are some types of activities that are in here?
20:17:23 Something that I see missing. a lot of organizations is what I call good old fashioned project.
20:17:26 Chartering is everything with anyone. The notion of creating a project charter, I would say, chartering activity, meaning the start.
20:17:34 I. What I find is the start is really important for any product development effort, and a lot of times folks start too quickly.
20:17:41 They don't properly begin and they wonder why they're ending badly, and I I would argue that.
20:17:46 Well, maybe you know. begin. if you ever heard of Stephen Cobbies begin with the end.
20:17:51 In my the beginning is is incredibly important. A short and longer term planning with the team do some planning with the team release management, thinking about releasing, chunking.
20:18:02 How are we gonna release this? How are we gonna deploy it?
20:18:05 The minimal marketable features, minimal viable products might come in at this level.
20:18:09 This is expectations, management, and communication from more of an execution point of view from a from a schedule point of view from an execution point of view.
20:18:17 We're on track we're not on track we need to drop features.
20:18:22 This is what we're going to drop you might you talk about dependencies.
20:18:26 Are there dependencies to other teams, other dependencies to other organizations in our company?
20:18:31 Are there dependencies to third parties. how are we managing the dependencies.
20:18:38 Again i'm not saying traditional project management you're not maybe using a gan chart.
20:18:42 But you have to consider. There has to be planning, I think, in order to land something.
20:18:47 Well and and the product owners are taking those planning activities at a high level on risk mitigation, milestones, thinking about regulatory concerns.
20:18:57 If you have them or budgeted everyone with me Now, maybe not.
20:19:03 All of these are relevant for your context, but some of them probably are. so.
20:19:06 I want you to make again think about making this your own.
20:19:11 I I find that a lot of people when they look at product backlogs they look at it.
20:19:17 Myopically or simplistically they look at I I call it feature items.
20:19:23 Very often. I say, you know the problem with today. I sound like a dinosaur.
20:19:26 The problem with kids today. The problem with backlogs today is that all they have is features.
20:19:32 I hope that resonates with folks. I I think a backlog needs to have other stuff in it, not just features, not just cramming features out the door.
20:19:41 But we want to be thinking about features matter. But what are we delivering?
20:19:47 Value and incremental value? Are we delivering architecture properly?
20:19:50 Are we unfolding the architecture? Are we unfolding design?
20:19:54 Are we considering process? Are you considering quality, particularly in regulatory environments?
20:20:00 Are you considering ux and design and look ahead and and how are you representing that i'd like to represent it in the backlog by tagging the backlog by visualizing the backlog in a different way
20:20:12 rather than just story, story, story, or epic epic or feature feature, feature, right There's more to it than that.
20:20:20 Are we talking? Are we building it? dependencies and visualizing dependencies and regulatory concerns and opportunities for feedback, etc.?
20:20:29 Does everyone get what i'm saying I don't I think there's new odds to the backlog.
20:20:32 So when you're thinking about project management, I want you to be thinking about, Am I embedding visual tools and packaging elements?
20:20:44 I'm not just looking at at work as a stream of stories that's not good enough with this kind of a mindset in quadrant 2
20:20:57 So now same exercise make quadrant to your own, and I want you.
20:21:04 How much time are you spending there, or are we as an organization?
20:21:08 And then how much time should we or em should I spend in that quadrant to 10% increments?
20:21:17 I don't want you to do load balancing everyone with me so I don't want you to consider the time estimates from Quadrant, one in Quadrant 2 I just want you to look at the myopically.
20:21:28 Look at the quadrant and figure out I want to be a badass product owner.
20:21:32 How much time am I spending there? And the really important question, How much time should I be spending there?
20:21:36 30%, 40%. What is it? So take a minute to flush out that quadrant
20:22:07 Quick question for someone to come off mute how many quadrants do.
20:22:13 We have left It's sort of a joke question someone tell me, where are we in the presentation?
20:22:22 Hey? through There you go! There you go. At least someone is paying attention.
20:22:27 Thank you for that. I appreciate it it's a little less.
20:22:39 That happens. day 2 ball exactly alright. Everyone i'm gonna move to Quadrant 3.
20:22:41 Now again you can be working on. You can be noodling at the end of this workshop.
20:22:46 I want you to have a real nice window into what is the balance of tasks and requirements for our product Ownership in our company context?
20:22:56 And how are we load balancing across It that's where we're going Quadrant?
20:23:01 3 is leadership me again. it's don't think of it as organizational structure.
20:23:07 Leadership. Think of it as product level, driven leadership.
20:23:11 Little, maybe another way to say this little L leadership. What are some of the activities that I think of here?
20:23:17 Vision and mission again, but not just setting it, communicating it up and down and around.
20:23:23 Everyone with me right continuously communicating the vision, making sure that the organization is aligned.
20:23:29 So a lot of communication, organizational alignment, managing expectations.
20:23:34 Again, but probably at this level, everywhere in the organization is is leadership.
20:23:40 Are they expecting too much from the team? Is is everyone with me.
20:23:45 The team has 20 points. Leadership wants 50 points our as our product owner.
20:23:49 Are you helping to manage that disc, that dissonance? There you should be as a leader, protecting your team.
20:23:57 Are you protecting and trusting your team? Are you balancing the work?
20:24:00 Remember everyone I was talking about. the backlog should have a balance portfolio of work, not just features.
20:24:09 What architecture, refactoring, bug fixes redesign experimentation.
20:24:13 All of those things and and metering that so are we balancing the work in that way.
20:24:19 I often think of a product owner, as being the general manager of their product, and the backlog is the place where they're where they're conducting the the investment into their backlog and it's not just
20:24:33 features. Are you considering the strengths of your team? Are you building it right the first time?
20:24:38 Are you making sure your team has space for quality, or are you making them work too fast?
20:24:43 Not that that would ever happen in the real world but are you putting too much pressure on the team, and they're therefore they're compromising quality.
20:24:51 But then you need to stop that. you need to be vulnerable.
20:24:55 If you need help, you need to have the courage in the willingness and the vulnerability to ask for help. I can't do all of the quadrants. I need help I need help here, and I need help here.
20:25:05 Another important part of leadership is, I think, becoming as part of the communicate.
20:25:11 The communication is becoming a consummate storyteller I really i'm i'm trying to promote storytelling as the new way to effectively communicate and that and balance expectations, etc., so are
20:25:24 you? Are you working on that? Are you actively storytelling?
20:25:28 And and I would argue that you should be
20:25:34 I wanna bring the scrum values in all of you probably have read this in the scrum guide, or some article or something.
20:25:41 There's 5 scrum values my point here is it's a lot of times.
20:25:46 People. look at the scrum values and say well they are for the team, everyone with me, therefore, the developers and the testers, i'm reminding you as part of Quadrant, the leadership Quadrant 3 These values
20:25:58 are for you as the product owner, you need to be walking and talking these values yourself, not just looking at the team.
20:26:06 What's one? everyone what would focus mean to a product under someone come off mute and tell me what how would you know if the product owner is walking focus in their role?
20:26:18 What would be an indication of that? Anyone
20:26:29 I would say active engagement and understanding the storyline, and can make a decision.
20:26:39 When, escalation question occurs, I would I would agree with you.
20:26:42 I would also say I would align it with even prioritization. if that makes sense like making sure that they're not overloading.
20:26:50 Do you ever work as a product owner? a product owner gave you like 5 number one priority.
20:26:54 So i'm just kidding everyone but how many how many number one priorities do.
20:26:57 We have 5. How many Number 2, 5 How many number 3 22 right? That's not focus that product owner is not providing focus for their team.
20:27:07 Let's go into courage. what would courage look like pushing back when the organizational demand that we need 5 number ones, and saying, No, we we can't have 5 number ones.
20:27:19 There is 1, one and 1 2, and this is what I think they are.
20:27:22 Help me. we can change it. but we but this is where i'm leaving and showing that courage to to focus the team.
20:27:30 So just an ex product owner is from the leadership point of view.
20:27:34 We need to be walking our talk. no walking. Our talk is the point.
20:27:40 I I have a quick story to tell. I mean I worked with a product owner years ago.
20:27:47 This is, but he was one of the best product owners I've worked with link Link walls, is his name he was in Raleigh, North Carolina, and he worked for a company called Channel Advisor.
20:27:56 He's now a chief product owner of another company at the time I was a scrummaster Coach Link was a Po.
20:28:02 Of one of the teams I was coaching, and he started doing something inviting the team to Pizza lunches and we were in the e-commerce area, and he started illustrating how our product
20:28:14 stacked up against competitive products from Google, from Microsoft, etc.
20:28:20 If that make makes sense with everyone. so we'd invite to team in for a pizza lunch, and they do a competitive analysis of strengths and weakness a swat analysis a product of product and he would be
20:28:29 helping the team understand how we stacked up positively, and where we had gaps and where we needed to move.
20:28:36 And I remember talking to Link one day after one of these lunch sessions, and i'm like, well, you know, Link, we need to be writing code.
20:28:41 I was not. I was not always the you know the smart coach that I am today, and I was putting pressure on, Linked to say, Stop doing the meetings.
20:28:51 We need to be writing code, everyone with me. Why are we wasting time talking about competitive analysis?
20:28:57 Why are we wasting? We could be? We could be developing features.
20:29:00 So I was feeding him feature. I had this, and and then over a few weeks I realized that I was wrong.
20:29:06 What Link was doing is, he was training the the entire team to be many links to be many names.
20:29:15 Does that make sense to everyone, so that they could have a view of the current so they could have the view of how the product was competing, and it changed the landscape.
20:29:24 The team started arguing with him. he'd give them a story, and they were like No, we don't need to do that story.
20:29:30 That's too much. The customer only needs this and link would be like, Oh, you're right, and the team would be estimating things differently, and they would be getting to the essence of the product and link didn't have to spoon feed
20:29:43 them, and what he did is he created many knees where it wasn't Links backlog and it wasn't Links product.
20:29:50 It was what it was our product, and it was our backlog, and it was our customer. and I think that's one of the powerful parts of leader.
20:29:58 I think I want product owners to to create this mini need.
20:30:02 Mindset where the entire team starts understanding what's important and what's not, and what the personas are for the customer.
20:30:11 He did a wonderful job of that, and I was absolutely wrong and pushing him to produce it.
20:30:18 And the quality improved and the team's productivity improved right, not by doing more, but by doing less, and doing the right things by really solving the customers problems.
20:30:26 So now I want to get you back. Third Quadrant leadership.
20:30:31 Make it your own. How much time are you, or are we spending there, and how much time should you, or should we spend their leadership
20:30:50 Everyone getting starting to get a nice well, rounded view when this job looks tough doesn't it?
20:30:55 Oh, my gosh, it's not just writing user stories What about that?
20:31:02 There's quite a bit to do there's a lot of nuance.
20:31:09 No wonder a product owner cannot support 28,000 teams.
20:31:14 May I imagine that
20:31:18 All right, hey? everyone, you don't need to do the math to know that if we're quadrant for we are at the end, I think we're closely in so this is what I would argue to be the
20:31:29 easiest quadrant to get kitchen brain wrapped around.
20:31:34 This is the business analysis. This is the requirements or the ask.
20:31:37 Quadrant Ask not at ask a quadrant This is the land of personas and user stories that resonate with everyone.
20:31:45 Personas user stories. This is the land of acceptance, criteria, definition of done definition ready.
20:31:51 This is the land of Look ahead and spiking like team risking, doing design.
20:31:58 Look ahead. architecture. look ahead doing it effectively so we're not we're not charging into the unknown and not knowing what the hell we're trying to do this is the land of confirmation, and sign off signing off
20:32:12 on a story. Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for It's the land of backlog refinement as a wonderfully rich activity.
20:32:23 A team collaboration, activity to clarify stories, the slice to size, to prioritize and reprioritize, based on additional information.
20:32:32 This is that business, and else may often people when they think of product ownership. They think of spending a lot of most of the time here, and that's that's that's fair.
20:32:43 But there's other things to do there's other quadrants to serve
20:32:49 One of the what are the sort of the challenges in in in the business analysis?
20:32:56 Quadrant is allowing things to emerge.
20:32:59 Is not writing stories to 2 completely upfront has anyone ever heard. There's there's a a coach Joel Morrison in Boston, and he talks about when a when a story enters sprint planning
20:33:14 i'll use that phrasing it should be about 30 20 to 30% complete.
20:33:20 Does that make sense to everyone? So a story enterprise planning with the major issues Resolved.
20:33:26 But it's only 30% complete Then He says in spring planning.
20:33:34 It gets about 50 to 60% complete and he said but you know what it's not like.
20:33:37 Traditional requirements are 100% complete before we work on them.
20:33:40 But agile requirements are different. they're emerging They emerge over over the life cycle of the sprint or the iteration, and they only exit the sprint at a 100% complete So as a team.
20:33:56 We have to be comfortable with ambiguity. we have to be comfortable with figuring things out as we go.
20:34:04 That's part of this emergent right We want to do research spikes, but not too many.
20:34:08 We wanna We wanna be emerging, not not rating too much too soon.
20:34:14 So not rushing and allowing for that emergent understanding.
20:34:19 And the product owner in this case is creating the space and the team for that, or creating the permission for that.
20:34:24 Another part of storytelling is getting back to the storytelling of the user stories rather than writing them down right.
20:34:34 The original intent of the user story was a placeholder to have a conversation.
20:34:38 I want everyone to write that down the the user story was not a traditional requirement artifact in the way we thought about it in waterfall.
20:34:47 It's it's not that it is a little promise it's a promissory note to have a conversation, and the conversation fills in the details.
20:35:00 And that conversation happens in refinement, in planning and in spring execution.
20:35:06 So if you're, just writing stories down and you're handing them around in Jira, or whatever your tool dejure is, that's okay, But you're missing the conversation part and it's the most important part of
20:35:19 that conversation, and it's not it's think of it as storytelling.
20:35:24 No, I'm, not talking about 1 point stories here Nicholas I ridge your mind.
20:35:28 You're thinking, are we gonna tell a story about a one-point story, Bob, that's Insane.
20:35:33 We don't have the time i'm not talking about 1 point minor minuscule trivial stories.
20:35:38 I'm talking about epics i'm talking about features i'm talking about meaningful big chunky things.
20:35:45 Why don't we start by the product owner talking about What is your vision for it linked to this with pizza?
20:35:52 What problem are we trying to solve for the customer? describe it?
20:35:55 Show a video. let's go Look at the customer that's see what's happened. storytelling is what we're trying to be adept at It's much more effective for the team to hit the mark all right
20:36:07 I wanna go back to Quadrant 4. Everyone you know the drill by now make quadrant for your own.
20:36:14 What are activities in there that you need to do? And then again, how much time are you spending there to 10% increments?
20:36:22 And how much time should you be spending there? So take a second
20:36:28 And I need to do a time check okay, we're okay everyone take a breath.
20:36:32 We're we're I think we're all right
20:37:10 Okay, Now, what I want everyone to do his work on your quadrants, and I want you to balance them a little bit.
20:37:16 So remember I was guiding you to say, Look at each quadrant individually.
20:37:22 Ignore the other ones. talk about what would being bad S.
20:37:26 And that quadrant look like how much time should I spend in there to be excellent.
20:37:29 So there's excellent, excellent excellent excellent where how much time should I be spending there?
20:37:35 Now I want you to go back and do some load balancing not necessarily to a 100%.
20:37:40 But see if Now now take a look back at all 4 quadrants, everyone with me, and see if you want to make some time adjustments some priority adjustment.
20:37:50 You know what I really like writing stories, but I need to be doing more leadership.
20:37:55 Does that resonate David right i'm spending 80% of my time in story writing there's nothing wrong with that.
20:38:01 But what i'm, doing is i'm starving leadership I need to be spending more time there, so maybe I bumped up up to 40, and I talk about how do I reduce my exposure on this story on the
20:38:11 on the on the business analysis Quadrant. So I want everyone to take a look at all.
20:38:16 4 quadrants, and be willing to change some of the numbers not so much on the current state, but on the where I need to spend time.
20:38:26 State. All right, i'll give you a minute for that
20:38:33 Oh, and it's okay, to go over a 100% i'm just amplifying that in fact, I think it would be healthy to say, you know what I need to be spending a 150%, which says I need help, because I can't do
20:38:45 that by myself.
20:38:54 How about just like 80% and 20% push back on my CEO.
20:39:00 Well whatever. however you went, this is your quadrant statement.
20:39:04 This is, I i'm really getting i'm trying to get you to look at whole listically.
20:39:09 The role of product, governor, and and what adjustments you need to make
20:39:22 Okay, everyone, I have. I have an apology to make. I basically lied to you.
20:39:28 So I have to throw myself under the bus. I lied.
20:39:33 I said there were 4 quadrants there are actually 5 I don't know what we I I don't know what got into me, but I feel terrible so.
20:39:45 But i'm not going to change it so I don't know what to call it.
20:39:46 Maybe a tetrahedron or a quadr loosen.
20:39:51 I don't Know what to call it but i'm going to call it the 4 quadrant model plus one, and and it even gets worse.
20:39:59 Not only did I forget a quadrant but guess what it I mean I can't believe I did this it's the most important quadrant.
20:40:06 It's by far, by far the most important quadrant in here.
20:40:11 It is the fifth quadrant. Is you the quit?
20:40:19 The fifth quadrant is are you investing in yourself as a product owner.
20:40:24 It's the self-care quadrant it's, our user balancing are You working.
20:40:31 Are you work, life, balancing? Are you self-aware of your strengths and your weaknesses?
20:40:35 Are you getting coaching and mentoring? Do you have the time to have a manager?
20:40:41 Do you have the time to have a coach? Are you happy, or are you working at a product owner?
20:40:45 And it stocks and you're miserable that'll come through it.
20:40:50 So? are you happy doing what you do? Are you doing what you love?
20:40:52 I hope so. Are you fulfilled? Are you trusted?
20:40:56 Do you know that in some surveys like 80% of the product owners, 70, 80% of project owners don't feel trusted by their organization. they're a product owner and name only but they don't they they are
20:41:07 micromanaged when they make priority decisions everyone understand what i'm saying they're a product owner, but everyone has to tell.
20:41:15 Oh, no! you made a mistake. This is Number One, and then someone else.
20:41:18 Oh, no, no, no, you don't understand this is number one they can't make this.
20:41:22 They're not they're not empowered they're not encouraged.
20:41:26 They're engaged they don't have time for relationship building. Does anyone realize how important it is to build relationships to be an effective product owner?
20:41:34 Downward, outward and upward in the organization gaining trust Oh, i'm writing stories.
20:41:41 I don't have time for that crap you need to have to hide for that.
20:41:44 You need to work on building yourself, it's the self quadrant.
20:41:48 There's a wonderful video. I want everyone to promise that you will watch this video.
20:41:54 It's Steve Jobs is pretty famous if you've seen it before.
20:41:57 I don't care suck It up see it again it's about a 15 min.
20:42:01 Video. it's a commencement address at Stanford, and one of the messages that he makes for very very passionately.
20:42:08 He talks about It's important to do what you love that's part of the model here.
20:42:14 Do product ownership because you love it you don't love it.
20:42:18 Go, do something else, find out something that you love or fall in love again by investing in the fifth quadrant.
20:42:25 Lenn legacy, I think, is a coach in the West coast in Utah.
20:42:31 If i'm not in the in the west coast in the mountains, and he wrote a wonderful post there's a link behind this.
20:42:38 I'll make sure you all get the slide deck and He talks about happiness, happiness what does happiness look like from a product owner.
20:42:45 They're immersed with their customers. as an example They have true ownership of their product.
20:42:51 They're empowered they're trusted otherwise don't do it.
20:42:55 Get someone else into that business that you can trust they have a positive working relationship with their scrum master. a partnership with their Sc. master.
20:43:04 It's. like 2 pieces of pod they're helping each other out to make sure that the quadrants are balanced, etc.
20:43:10 They're proud of what their team is delivering they keep themselves healthy right in balance.
20:43:17 It doesn't mean they're not working hard I think it's a wonderful list of happiness.
20:43:22 So now what I want you all to do is go back to your quadrants and adjust, based on you and yourself.
20:43:28 So reserve time, and rebalanced the fifth quadrant of mine.
20:43:35 Everyone with you Have a minute to go back and do a major refactoring, if you need to, or minor refactoring of your quadrants, and make sure that you're not starving yourself.
20:43:46 That you are the number one priority and you're developing yourself. Link did a great job of that one of the reasons Linkedin mini me is something that he didn't have to micro manage everything with the team does everyone understand
20:43:57 that the Mini he didn't the team he was delegating authority and understanding and awareness to his team which gave him space to then manage in other areas of the quadrants and to do more leadership and to do
20:44:11 more product management. So think about your balance.
20:44:46 Okay, So what does good. look like we're almost done everyone and I squeezed in another quadrant.
20:44:53 So that's why, we're we're running over time a little bit.
20:44:56 But you could think of it as I I under, promised and over delivered.
20:44:59 So you could. You could look at it from that point of view.
20:45:03 So what? Just what are some of the things to think about?
20:45:06 What this could look like, Ask for help. Hopefully, this section is showing you.
20:45:11 You know what. No wonder i've been struggling in the role i'm overloaded and I need to make so much adjustment decisions about where I need to spend my time and where I need to go for help establish
20:45:23 partnerships. What should be one of the first partnerships with that a product under establishes so much shouted out.
20:45:30 I heard it. scrum, master. Yes, you should be partnering with your scrub master, and I don't mean about knowing their name or inviting them from coffee.
20:45:40 I'm talking about establishing mission and vision working together.
20:45:44 Maybe the scrum master can help with product management. They can literally get in the game and help with some of the quadrant activities.
20:45:51 Trust your team. Your team is your partner. They can help you empower yourself, Engage your customers, don't over value grow yourself.
20:46:03 The other thing is partner with your peers and identify.
20:46:08 David said something powerful earlier. Have some ratios but escalated to your leadership and say you know what I need help.
20:46:15 There's a pro right no there's a reason Why, we're having mediocre quadrant product ownership.
20:46:21 There's not enough time to cover all of the bases I can cover these.
20:46:27 These are the right things for me, but I need help in This quadrant, and I need a little bit of assistance here, and I need it now, because mediocrity is not our goal.
20:46:37 It's not the goal for me. and it's not the goal for my team, and another key to good is a healthy balance across the quadr, not starving them.
20:46:50 I don't star don't starve the quadrant. Well, Bob, I don't have time to be everywhere. So I'm, gonna i'm gonna stay in business analysis that's a really bad strategy right
20:47:00 i'll do my best i'll try i'll try to you know this is where i'm gonna focus, and i'll try to do a little bit here that's not that's that's a mediocre i'll be good in this
20:47:09 quadrant and i'll be mediocre mediocre and mediocre.
20:47:12 Here you're not serving your organization that way and you're not serving your team that way, and you're not serving yourself that way.
20:47:18 So think about healthy balance and that's it We are done, and we have a little time for questions.
20:47:26 There's a couple I have some the book on the left is a free handout, and and like I said i'll make sure you get these links in the Pdf.
20:47:33 And then there's a discount for my product owner book. If anyone cares but other than that I am done.
20:47:40 So i'll stop sharing and see if anyone has any questions. Alright, thank you, Bob, for that excellent presentation. Wow!
20:47:50 Kind of mind buckling all the things you need to keep in mind this product owner for balance.
20:47:55 But that's really really key and really great that you organize those thoughts so well.
20:48:02 Anyone wanna share any thoughts on there? numbers? They took notes on a couple of questions.
20:48:09 This is Apala here. there are a couple of questions in the chat that came up by the attendees for Bob The first question is, how does a product manager support marketing?
20:48:23 And since team I I mean I can't tell you I think I think a product.
20:48:29 So let's say i'm a product owner who was operating as a product owner and a product manager in the organization.
20:48:35 Everyone with me. So I have a dual role and that's the way the mapping has done, and that happens in quite a few organizations.
20:48:42 So then, I have, as part of my product, management, responsibility.
20:48:45 I have to support marketing and say, host, and the order is defined. What that means from a job in a role description, point of view. I just need to spend time there.
20:48:54 Everyone understand what i'm saying so whatever those activities are don't starve them.
20:48:59 Now spend some time there so but it may not be you, Apollo.
20:49:03 It may be it may be someone else so let's say you that's not an area of strength, for you right. i'm not. I'm not good. I don't understand marketing I don't understand.
20:49:14 Product management. Well, maybe maybe I escalated to my boss or maybe there's a product manager in the product organization who can help.
20:49:20 So what I need to do is get covered there. so if I can do it as part of my well rounded robin do it if I can't based on my load balance, then I need to get help and assistance there and the scope
20:49:32 of it. is defined organizationally, so but but don't start the activities. so it can range from like strategizing the marketing and sales plan, or as well as like. Just so let me change This Yes, so let me.
20:49:52 Define it this way. What does badass product management, marketing, road mapping look like?
20:50:01 Not mediocre, but excellent. What is knocking it out of the park look like?
20:50:04 Well, we need to serve that in that organization now. I would, I would guess.
20:50:10 To me. Strategy is part of that. You, with me absolutely, absolutely.
20:50:14 Strategy, but a lot of folks struggle with that because that's strategic, and there's a lot of tactical work to do.
20:50:20 But we need to. We need to be doing both that someone needs to be doing so.
20:50:24 How do we identify that? and make sure that's work That's done so?
20:50:29 So yeah, Thank you, Bob. So the second question that came up in the chat is is there?
20:50:37 And is there an online resource for xing the nuance in the backlog that you mentioned better than the typical feature driven story? point?
20:50:48 So I I think a place where i've talked about this more you know that free book So on that slide that had a free book on the left, and my product owner book on the right on the free book side there's an entire that
20:51:02 contains links to blog posts, and I I have an entire section of maybe 10 to 12 blog post That talk about story back like backlog dynamics which provide a lot of new answers.
20:51:16 So I would say, look at that! Look at that. Grab that free Pdf: Look at the backlog section and start going down.
20:51:25 The refinement as part of it in backlog construction.
20:51:29 I suspect you'll get a lot of insights into the nuance that way.
20:51:34 Thank you, Bob, You're welcome anyone has any other questions these are all that we had from the chat.
20:51:45 But We have a few minutes, everyone, or we can close our link.
20:51:50 So we've had a lot of appreciation for your knowledge and inside sharing, because as well.
20:52:00 I i've been looking at our chat session again, like you, are you?
20:52:06 You just you know, shining bright and light, and in many directions. Thank you.
20:52:14 Many people have a lot of crazy I I wanna ask, I wanna ask the group just a few people from the group what's the meta message of this talk?
20:52:25 I want. I want a few people to weigh in and say, Oh, if you were to say, what is the one liner?
20:52:30 What is the one thing i'm trying to get across the po's I'm.
20:52:35 I'm curious to see how it landed could someone take a whack at that.
20:52:39 What's the one go out to balance the workload in different areas of the of your job rules?
20:52:49 I would I would buy that. I would take that as part of our elevator pitch someone else.
20:52:54 Wait, Earl, you have something you have your handout i'd say, being a product owner involves a lot more than you might think.
20:53:03 Can I add to Earl, and to to solutions I think and don't starve in the area.
20:53:10 Everyone right it's when we start something it's not like don't try anyone ever hear that i'm doing this, and i'll try to do that, and i'll try to do this and someone's over there is no
20:53:20 try there is do or do not right there's due and i'm leaning into do, and and not just do but do well, there's there's too much mediocre product ownership.
20:53:30 And it's not because the product owners are bad you know there may be issues or challenges there from a scholarship.
20:53:38 They're not being set up for success and they're not sitting themselves up for 6 h. So the quadrants are there to say that's be excellent and and let's identify what we need to be doing and make sure
20:53:49 every all the bases are covered right, and and to do great work.
20:53:56 The other thing is, don't lose sight of who some one else Stormy is pointing at yourself.
20:54:04 Yes, don't you and I am not joking when I say you are the most important quadrant.
20:54:11 So part of that is learning and growing your skills learning your skills that's hard skills and soft skills that's understanding more about like if you're weak in product management and you need to step into that quadrant you have some
20:54:25 learning to do so. Step into that cool, perhaps perhaps part of The problem here is that the scrum guy is only 13 pages long, and that's only like one paragraph, for product ownership.
20:54:40 Well, product owner owners Manual, I it's it's true. Nicholas, it's the reason.
20:54:49 So when I wrote the product owner book in 2,009. it was even worse that there was very little guidance for product owners.
20:54:55 Back there. There was little Guy there's little guidance in general, but there was.
20:54:58 There was a lot of product earners that were struggling it was like you're a product owner.
20:55:02 Now go make it go make it so and I I was trying to still in guidance, and I think there's still to this day there's still a gap in what is it look what's this good Look like the other thing
20:55:13 is an earl hit on it. there's a depth in breath to product ownership.
20:55:17 Done Well, that I don't think many people get right it's not for It's not for the fame of heart.
20:55:24 It's not a trivial pro it's a profession I would argue the simply for scrum masters scrum.
20:55:31 Mastery is a deep and a broad perfection it's not for it it it it it's important and the product.
20:55:39 Ownership is the same way. Yeah, Earl was asking if you had a talk, for how didd be a great scrum, master? Correct?
20:55:49 No I didn't my back pocket or oh, but that's a really fair question.
20:55:56 So so maybe maybe, or maybe it's even maybe it's an exploration of what are some of those factors?
20:56:01 Oh, I can ask me anything, or like a almost a mini open space sometime would be a way to do that and gather other people's, views.
20:56:07 I. I have talked about what scrum mastery so forget discrimination.
20:56:11 But what does scrum mastery look like and and that's very similar to what we're talking about by?
20:56:20 I'd like to ask where is this information contained in one of your books.
20:56:23 So So a lot of this stuff the quadrants I i'd say the product owner book has a lot of 90% of what we're talking about. but I would say that free resource is a great place if you
20:56:35 don't want to buy the book. the other nice thing about the free book is. it has links to blog posts, which are more digestible chunks.
20:56:43 So there's smaller digestible chunks and you can kind of find things that can you know, can talk about areas that you're struggling with rather than reading the the book you know for sort of front to back So I do think I do think
20:56:56 that ebook is a place to start that's relatively easy.
20:57:01 Okay, Yeah, i've got a quick question for you if anyone else to ask another question.
20:57:06 Jump into right after this, because I have another question after this.
20:57:08 So there's a question i'm in the chat that came up.
20:57:12 I think it's going to take more time but then it says can you?
20:57:17 Bob, can you please elaborate more on the depth and breadth of product ownership?
20:57:24 This is going to sound really lame and I apologize, but I I would literally say, read my product owner book, or read anyone's product under book. Roman Pitcher has a good book Jeff Watson has a book
20:57:40 on I think those books take a serious view and I and I i'd say, read it end to end, and what they're really talking about.
20:57:49 Is. This is what excellence looks like the quadrant spoils it down.
20:57:53 So I mean people are writing 300 pages about the role of product owner, and that's assume that they're not verbose and not just speaking for their own state that that says that there's more to the role than is
20:58:06 represented into the scrum guide and there's more practical application of the role.
20:58:11 I'm not trying to make it sound like it's the President of the United States role.
20:58:15 But it is a serious role. Well you know it's a bigger role than a task, and I think that's the way a lot of people who walk into the role.
20:58:27 They walk into role as if it's a developer task as opposed to a leadership role.
20:58:36 A bunch of a bunch of lots of areas.
20:58:39 Exactly I would agree with you it's a robust role.
20:58:43 Again. if you want to do mediocre development, or or agile, and you want to have spotting results, well, then, don't worry about it.
20:58:50 But if we want to, I do agile if we're not getting kick-ass results, and what and one of the core requirements for that he's Cigass product owners who really understand the nuance of the role
20:59:00 in their contact. Bob, how do you feel about the scum founders changing scrum roles?
20:59:09 Let's just grown master product under into just accountabilities now, and do this shift.
20:59:13 Are you starting to see fewer people acting in these accountabilities as their soul function, and more devastating expected to play novels?
20:59:20 I haven't seen those things were allowed in the real world yet to where, where it's really changing my views that the way I've expressed it today, Nicholas I mean I see what you're talking about I
20:59:33 I still, and I may. You know, I sort of disagree with the with some of the founders.
20:59:39 I still think of product ownership that's just talk about this topic today.
20:59:42 It's not an accountable I I want it to be a role.
20:59:45 I want it to be a profession right i'm not talking about a hierarchy.
20:59:49 But I I want you to be prided, and I want you to be joy in it.
20:59:52 I want leaders and organizations to appreciate product owners and the value that they bring to the table.
20:59:59 Right. I mean, really appreciate them. Trust them right. Senior leaders in the organization should be like, you know.
21:00:08 So bowing down to the empowering the product.
21:00:09 These are the folks where the rubber meets the road that's that's the agile model.
21:00:13 So everyone I want to honor the timebox I think it's top of the hour. Maybe that's a good way to to land.
21:00:20 So. So thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
21:00:22 I really appreciate it. Everyone Sure. Okay, Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you so much for the talk, Bob.