WEBVTT 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:18.000 alright welcome, everybody joining us great to see our folks from long time. 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Haven't seen many of you guys thank you for joining us beginning of our series of metaphysics that we're going to have as agile scaled value project management bringing agile mindset to project program leadership let's 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:45.000 get rid of this management world and call. Everybody has leader. and thank you very much. 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:50.000 Sherry joining us, and giving us a glimpse of what is this? 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:56.000 Agile as a mindset, and helping us to dive into the mindset. 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:13.000 I got I I met sure like about 6 5 6 years ago, and since then I can't stop learning from from her hand what she's been providing to our public especially in scrum and agile domain. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:24.000 I can't say enough about her leadership style and and how she's been coaching teams and teams of teams at the Enterprise level. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:33.000 So I I let the introduction for sharing yourself. because I know I can't do just you know just just into introduction. 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:39.000 Thank you for joining us. sherry you're welcome It's also less awkward when I introduce myself. 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:53.000 It's like it's kind of weird when other people introduce you. Don't you think at least that's what my experience is. It's like, Oh, this is kind of awkward but welcome Everybody thanks, for Oh, sorry 00:01:53.000 --> 00:02:05.000 let me go ahead and share and get this lines ready so that way somebody's got background noise. 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:09.000 So if you're not talking if you can go and you Benny awesome. 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:19.000 I do want to invite you to have conversation with me through. and we're gonna be talking today about add a leadership, and to me it's the key to sustainable change. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:32.000 So for those of you who don't know me i'm Shirley, Silas, and i'm a certified team and certified enterprise coach and I work with coaches and scrum masters 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:51.000 and managers, and project managers and other angelists who are developed in their careers as especially as regards helping companies choose to transition to a more outer ways of working and i'm also a professional 00:02:51.000 --> 00:03:04.000 coach. So I'm, a master server to find college with the International Confederation, and so I I run an organization called in Coaching Academy, and we do 2 things. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:13.000 First, we work with more organizations and help them with their annual adoptions, but we also coach individuals and executives. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:20.000 And then we have a training school where we train agileists to learn and adopt professional coaching. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:26.000 And into the way they're working because what we've seen over time. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.000 Is that it just creates a much more sustainable way of working. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.000 I do some agile training. all of scrum aligned courses and some Ic. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:49.000 Handle courses things like that, and then we my partners and I recently published a book called Enterprise Adobe, and it can be kind of a blueprint for How do? 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:53.000 You. How do you become a coach? How do you get started with clients? 00:03:53.000 --> 00:04:00.000 What do you do once you're there and i'm developing that way of working with organizations? 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:09.000 And so some of the things that we're talking about today will be are in that book, and it's it goes deeper on a lot of other topics. 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:14.000 Also. So you are welcome to check that out there's a link there. 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.000 If you want to get more information about it, and we do have kindle and paper version of Zoom. 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:29.000 We'd love to hear your thoughts if you decide to read that book and get your Amazon reviews, so we can understand what the impact is that it's making. 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:41.000 So as we go into agile leadership to me, working in an organization as an analyst 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:53.000 And then someone helped me companies to make these transitions the number one thing is it's the way you think it's the way you think about when you work with people and the way. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:05:09.000 You think about what you're looking in the organization and so my view is is that as someone who's helping companies to adopt idle and transition to agile what you're really doing is extending in the 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:16.000 invitation to them to be your partners or for you to be a partner with them. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:20.000 You're not coming and doing the work for them you're not. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:25.000 You're not coming in and saying i'm gonna make all this change happen i'm responsible for and i'm gonna . 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:31.000 It can happen. because the reality is you can't make anybody else change. 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:37.000 I mean. think for a minute. any of you ever needed to lose £10 or more than £10? 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.000 Your old life. Probably so. Most of us have that issue right. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000 Most of us, at some point need to lose weight, or one of those weight. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:51.000 And how is it for you when you're sister spouse parent neighbor? 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.000 Whoever comes up and they're like you know what you need to lose weight. 00:05:54.000 --> 00:06:00.000 This is how you're gonna do it stop eating that you can't have that cake you can have the hamburger. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.000 You're gonna eat this this bowl of fruit how's that work for you all? 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Do you love it? Probably not. And what happens when they leave you're like huh? 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:17.000 2 slices a cake and and this is why you can't so we can't really think that i'm gonna come in. 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:24.000 I'm gonna change your company for you because the at most you can get compliance, and they'll do what you said. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:32.000 Why are they there? And then, when you leave they're gonna roll back and possibly whirl back even further, then they were when you got there. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:40.000 And so what it takes is partnership and an openness to do this together right? 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:53.000 And so when we think about add leadership it's a changed mindset, it's a mindset that is one of partnership instead of one of directedness, and I know what to do and i'm i'm the one 00:06:53.000 --> 00:07:08.000 who's gonna make things happen here. it's more about thinking about your your people that you're working with as partners and your self as apartment to them a different approach to getting things to happen it's a different approach 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:15.000 to getting business results. and so, in order to have full partnership there's has to be an understanding that. 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:28.000 Yes. Well, I have expertise and I have skills and I have experience all that's great. but it's only one half of me creation. the group or the people i'm working with i'll just call them the client from here and 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:35.000 out to make it easy for me. The client also has a piece of the equation. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:38.000 They've got the experience with the company they've got the domain knowledge they 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:43.000 They know what the needs of organization where they know where they're trying to get. 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:52.000 And so it's your background and their background together to do something you can can't do it alone, and they can't do it alone. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:08:01.000 And you agree to have a partnership to move things forward And so we're gonna talk today about is how this change in mindset. 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Can be helpful. And and what are some of the ways of thinking in being that reflect this agile leadership mindset from. 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:23.000 So as we think about The The the question that is always most important is why anything you're gonna do I can't. 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:29.000 If I could give you a solution. Great but if I don't Know the problem, then who's to say the solutions right? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:36.000 And we gotta know the why behind why we wanna change, why we wanna do something different. 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:44.000 Angel is a solution. it's not a I don't know it's it's not a it's not a business model. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:58.000 It's a solution to business problems we have things business problems that we can't solve an agile is one of the ways that we sold them the way it's happy for And so as we think about this partnership in this agile 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:08.000 mindset the why behind it is based on my experience. Working as a coach in organizations. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:17.000 Is that often when people are trying to be this person who's bringing about change, 3 things are happening. 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:27.000 One they are seeing the client as broken and or as the naked them, or is not knowing as much, or as needing to be fixed. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:31.000 And i'm here to fix you on your superhero i'm gonna make everything better. 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:39.000 Everybody communicates as a lack of that. And so shifting the way you think in the way that iraq can. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:47.000 Can offset. that so that you don't show lack of respect, and we'll get a little bit different and respect as we go on. 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:59.000 The second is that resistance is a real thing I don't know how many of you have ever tried to enable any kind of change, whether it's at home or in an organization. 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:04.000 And everybody was like, Yes, we love change we're gonna do this thing. 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah, that's probably not the way it went it's usually more resistance to change. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:31.000 And while people want the impact of change they don't necessarily want to change. And so one of the one of the things about this working through this newly leadership mindset of partnership, is it reduces resistance. 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:38.000 Often we think that people are resisting change when really what they're resisting in us. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.000 And then the other thing is unsustainable. change. 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:55.000 Yeah, Because if i'm forcing things when you like get compliance, and then those changes become unsustainable because it's not really what you want to do, and then also, if i'm doing all the work 00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:25.000 you'd never learn to do it and so these 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Changes become unsustainable so we're gonna address these things today, as we talk about under 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:19.000 How to stop showing a lack of respect with people is is this is the core of the problem. 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:27.000 People are out there inflicting their influence or inflicting coaching or sleeping advice. 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:38.000 On others, and what's happening is people feel like they're tied down, and they're chained up and they're like I you're just in here forcing me to do all these things and none of them even 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:44.000 make sense. you've got this model that you want to shove in and make us do 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:48.000 We should do scrum, we should do Con bond. we should do safely to do less. 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:53.000 Whatever the things are that you should do, we should have user stories. 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:00.000 All these things. and and we can't come in and inflict our help on mother. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:14.000 They have to actually agree to partnership. because when we are inflicting our own influence on people. It gives the impression that we have the mindset of the world. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:18.000 You don't know what you're doing I do i'm smarter than you do. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:26.000 I know how to run your company you don't know and the reality is, we we generally don't know how to run other people's companies, even if we know how to run our own company. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.000 We don't know how to run somebody else's we have ideas about what's worked for us in the past with other companies. 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.000 Maybe, but it's a different system it's a different political system. 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:44.000 It's a different human system. it's a different technical system. it's a different process, and policies and procedures and everything else. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:49.000 And so while the challenge on the surface might look the same it's not. 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:53.000 And so that's why, we can't take out of the box some solution. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:58.000 And say, here it is. we're gonna do it by the way I know how to fix you instead. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:03.000 What we need is to build a relationship and to build a agreement. 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:12.000 Do you even want my help I can't tell you how many times I've been in organizations, and they've 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:25.000 The organization's hired me done. so it works with these people, and then, when I get to those people they're like, we don't want to work with you, and then so the choices are inflict my coaching on them going to do something 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:31.000 different inflicting my coaching on them doesn't work because that just creates resistance right? 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:37.000 So instead, we need to. I I need to understand what is it that you are doing well, Right? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I'm not here to fiction I don't think you're broken. I think you know what you're doing, and there's probably some things that are aggravating you and frustrating you getting on your nerves and little small 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:57.000 things that if we can just get the organization to change, you would be more successful, and you would meet your goals. 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:02.000 What are those things i'd love to partner with you to see if we can do something about that right? 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:13.000 And so it's it's a matter of building a with them, instead of finding against him, get in the fight with them, and be on their side. 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:23.000 So I wanna open up for for a minute. If anybody has any thoughts or comments or questions about 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:39.000 Anything i've said so far in cell phone throw in the chat, or you can open up your mic and ask a question, and happy to address that for you 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:44.000 And while you are thinking of your questions, since I don't see anybody, Ramone, did you have something? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:55.000 I see. Oh, yeah, I've never combine the inflicting influence with disrespective. 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:01.000 I've never thought of it that way before. so what's thinking about that way. 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Do for you Oh, there's a there's a shift I don't know. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:16.000 I just never thought of influencing or pushing the influence as a disrespectful item, and that's really an eye opener awesome. 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:22.000 See it's already That shift and that leadership might have been just that little shift makes a lot of difference. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:37.000 You'll see a lot of change as you start to look at that from the different perspective, because they can be more open to what they want and what they need, and not so much what you think they need awesome and along the way, if you have any 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:45.000 questions or comments, please either throw them in chat or just raise your hand, and we'll be sure we grab those. 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:51.000 So another piece of respect is assuming competence in coaching. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:00.000 We say that we always start with the assumption that the climate is composite. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.000 Creative, resourceful, unbroken they don't need me to feel right. 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:21.000 You start a coaching relationship from the you're not broken perspective. unlike, maybe therapy where it's like. Well, there's an assumption you're broken we are not agile therapists we are angled. 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Okay, coaches, and so we start with you're not broken. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:34.000 You might have some problems you're not sure how to solve I might have some answers that can help you, and if if I don't, then we can work together to figure those things out. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:39.000 But I don't assume You're broken I assume that you know what you're doing. 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:44.000 I assumed that you've been running this company without me for all this time, and you can afford to hire me. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:52.000 So you must be doing something right. And so I know you know how to figure out your problems, because you know your system even better than me. 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:59.000 I know the right questions to ask. I know some techniques and tools that can help you to uncover some of that stuff right? 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:05.000 And I've got perspectives and I can help you see things from different perspectives. Right? 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:10.000 So when we assume people are competent, I want you to think for just a minute. 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:21.000 If you if you say well, everybody in the organization i'm working with will just say called in the client all the people i'm here to help make change my boss is my client my teams are my client. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:26.000 My Co. works with my client i'm here to serve them to help them make change. 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:38.000 Now, big question. if you really, really, really honestly believe but they are competent, and they don't need you to fix them. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:50.000 How does that change the way you interact so when you look around and you're like That's a weird thing that's happening over there 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:55.000 There, there, there's a shift at least for me from you're, so incompetent. 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.000 Let me tell you how to do this. What are you doing? 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.000 This is ridiculous. Why are you doing so? You know anything? 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:13.000 2 flown that's really weird and it must be a valid reason, because they're competent. and so they must be solving some problem, and that this was the solution. 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:17.000 And so I wonder what that problem is if it still exists. 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:26.000 And if this solution is not something that right so there's an assumption that they're doing things right until proven differently until they decide that. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:33.000 Oh, maybe it's not right so what about you if you see them as competent. 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:40.000 What shifts are you 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.000 I see some comments in chat about curiosity and interests right like I'm really curious. 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:50.000 Why are you doing that? I never thought of the reading that way I wouldn't have done it that way. 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:58.000 What do you know that I don't know right there's more ask, tell me more about this help me see help me understand what's going on. 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:02.000 I want to I want i'm curious about what you're doing in the life. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:08.000 What else? 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000 And I have a We have a question asking that if you would. 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Chime into the difference between coaching and mentoring. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Thank you for that. I completely missed that question. How do you even see it? 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:26.000 So the difference between coaching and metering they're kind of one. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:33.000 They're very, very closely related and they're kind of on opposite sides of the spectrum. 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:47.000 So mentoring takes the whoever you're working with you to take their knowledge that they have about something and their skills, and you're a little bit further down the road at least from them. 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:57.000 And so you take your skills and you mix them with theirs and they're gonna homage and you help them get better move to the next level, right? 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:11.000 So say somebody is they're they're they're they They just started running, and they're they're wanting to run on 5 K. or 10 k races. you've been doing this for a while midterms would 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:24.000 be getting in there with them and helping them to learn like Oh, I see you're you're doing really well, I'm noticing you're having problems breathing. let me tell you what I do and see if that. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:29.000 Helps, and then and and things like that. right? Let me show you some of the stretches I do, and see if that helps you. 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:39.000 Thank you right, and so it's helping them to get to that next level when they already know what they're doing. 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:48.000 Coaching is they know what they're doing they're doing and you're helping them to see things from wider perspectives. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:54.000 Okay, I don't necessarily know the answers and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna tell you how to fix this. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.000 So you want to. You want to be a runner great i'm not a runner. 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:09.000 I don't know how to do that. but what we can do is I can partner with you to look at things from a bunch of different perspectives and figure out help you figure out what are your next steps to be better who do you need 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:13.000 to get help from. Where can you learn what kind of practice do you want to put in? 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.000 And what are you learning along the way I don't know how to do this? 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:32.000 But I don't have to you can figure it out i'm gonna help you think that help from this kind of a in this difference between the 2 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:45.000 Thank you. Great. So last thing on respect is their concerns before yours. 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:56.000 And so one of the big mistakes that I see 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:01.000 And so I look around and i'm like that's broken that's broken. 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That's not right. you should be doing this and then so I start just telling you. go fix these things right. here's the stuff that you need to do the future organization. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:19.000 And and but what happens is you create, resistance that way because that's about you and your ability to be successful helping them. 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:29.000 Transition what they really need is for you to Find out what are their pain points and focus on their pain points. what's most frustrating to you. 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:37.000 What's not working for you what's getting in your way what are the big things that that organizationally everybody is saying. 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:42.000 We we need role clarity. We need better systems what is it that's coming up. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:53.000 You focus on helping them fix their problems. what's gonna happen is all that stuff that you know a lot of that's going to be the solution to their problems. 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:59.000 And then, so your your challenges are going to get fixed in the process. 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:06.000 But if you do it, the other way. around where you're like this needs you need to do this this this what what's going on is from their perspective. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:17.000 You're giving up a bunch of solutions but you don't even know the problems you're telling me how to do all this stuff you're wanting me. you're applying all these solutions but those are not the problems I 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:33.000 have I have these problems, And so what you're telling them to do is the exact same thing that uses the solution to their problem because they don't know what the problem is that you're solving they reject it and So 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.000 you wanna go with the things that are most painful for them. 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:50.000 The things that they see is most urgent and let your your stuff. Inform how to help them solve that. And then you're going to gain partnership, and then and you're gonna be following their lead and they're gonna know 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:57.000 that you really use for their success and not your own Why should They care if you're successful. 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:02.000 Take care of their successful. They they're John and they're both moments and their promotion online. 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.000 Why should they care if you get one if they're not gonna get one right? 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:21.000 So we wanna flip that move on their side and help them to do successful, and that's what creates that moment sometimes to be successful 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:30.000 So resistance, this lack of respect definitely those things that we cover there definitely cause resistance. 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.000 And you know I have people who ask me all the time. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000 I think one question that I get from people is, How do you deal with resistance? 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:49.000 Number one age or I just didn't stop creating it people people don't, I mean yes, people don't like change. 00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Most people don't like change but most of the time they're not with rejecting the change they're rejecting you, and the way you're in interacting with them, and and what they feel as a result of their 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:08.000 interact. They feel forced if they feel like you think they're not smarter. 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:14.000 They don't know how to do their jobs? They might feel threatened. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:19.000 Because who are You you're coming in here and you're telling me I don't even have a job like I don't belong here. 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:31.000 I apologize because I have heard way. too many coaches. Say, there's no project managers Oh, yeah, that's gonna make me want to do this you're just gonna get rid of me in my job 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:34.000 right. I no longer have a job yeah i'm gonna support you all the way. 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:40.000 Well, of course they're gonna resist you Why, wouldn't You You're you're stealing their livelihood. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:48.000 You're telling them that this career that they worked their whole life and they've their blood sweating tears into that he's successful. 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:59.000 You're just telling you're dismissing it like It's not same thing happens with managers. Oh, you don't. We don't need there's no man well that's ridiculous scrum Maybe there's not 00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:06.000 a role on the team for managers but that doesn't mean there's not managers in companies right and Sp is in a company. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.000 Let's let's use some some sense here and so don't push people away. 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:17.000 Don't create defensiveness and resistance won't get as much of it as maybe you're getting right. 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:28.000 Now, what if you're doing things that way but you want to create a space where people feel safe in partnership, and they want to to do on these things? 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:38.000 And so realistically Yes, changes horn and if you're a change agent, and change is probably pretty easy for you, brother, like really deal. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:43.000 I like change? i'm cool with change I even get that information? 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:47.000 What what are we doing? and Then i'm like okay let's go. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:03.000 That's not the way most people would have to change right when you when you're working and especially organizations, people, organizations, and you're introducing change there's basically a spectrum of people's 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:10.000 changed tolerance. right? Some people have really high tolerance. to change, and those are going to be your early adopters. 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:15.000 They're like Yes, Likes experiment let's do this thing sure. i'll be on that on that experiment team. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.000 Let's do this new thing we don't know if it's gonna work. 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:25.000 But we'll figure it out right so they're the ones that you that are doing the experimentation. 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.000 And they're ready to just yeah we'll we'll do it. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:36.000 Then there's the people on the opposite side of the spectrum who are like They're the ones that are digging into their hills, and they're like we're not doing this this is ridiculous. 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:42.000 Why should we do this? I already have my job i'm retired, and in 3 years i'm not gonna change careers. 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:55.000 Right So there are the other side and they're saying those things you're saying things like, Yeah, this is another one of those fans in 6 months it'll be going and so i'm just gonna hold on until it comes right 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:02.000 and so they're not looking for and then there's this big group in the middle. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:10.000 It's usually the biggest group and they're looking around at those around them, and they're saying Well, what should we do? 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.000 They get the message of what they should do from their people. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:23.000 And so the big mistake. that most people make is they look at the people who are resisting and they're like I'm gonna go stop the resistance. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:34.000 I'm gonna make him move right and then let me feel like you're getting in my way, and they spend 80% of the effort with this 20% that is resistant. 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:50.000 What does that do? What it does is it creates a lot of noise around the resistance and a lot of energy around the resistance, and it brings momentum in that direction, because all the people in the middle they just hear the words about 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:59.000 how horrible this is and how we shouldn't be doing it and how it's a pain, and how it doesn't work, and they're like, well, gee you're right we shouldn't do that either and then so you build 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:05.000 all this momentum towards resistance, and you and it's like scheme up here instead. 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:11.000 Can you leave the resistance don don't bother building relationship with them. 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:16.000 Don't try to force them to change who tell them boss they're not doing what you said. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:24.000 None of that stuff focus on the ones who want to create a change in Build momentum. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.000 There, right. Let them experiment with them. Everybody hey? this is what we did, and it's great. 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:37.000 This is what we're learning let's go through all of the books and the learning and work on all the kinks, and let that noise generate. 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:47.000 And then that group in the middle will be like huh? Maybe this actually is a pretty good thing, and they'll start to come over that way right eventually. What happens? 00:30:47.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Is you kind of get what you get through that middle group, and you start to get down to the only ones left that haven't come over are the ones who are resistant, and some of those have started to come over by this time they will either have 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:09.000 started the shift, or they say, Well, I don't work at this company, we're gonna work somewhere else. 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:16.000 And then they right so you don't need to do that build relationships with them, so that they can trust you. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.000 And then you can partner with them when they're ready you Don't spend all your energy there. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:28.000 You just can make it worse for yourself. Does that make sense? 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:35.000 Yeah, yeah, I wanna I wanna ch chime in in A in a in a different angle. 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:43.000 Everybody on this crowd is is a project manager or have been a project slash program leader. 00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:57.000 And we talked about bringing children and partnership, especially when there is resistance directly or indirectly conscious or unconscious. 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:09.000 When we have a new manager coming to the team There's some sort of unconscious by a slash resistance to what? 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:17.000 Oh, gosh, we have another command and control leadership here Okay, let's see how our new manager is good. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:32.000 And what kind of he's going to Have We are project managers have you trying to acquire functions hopefully all the agile and mindset and not just tools and techniques? 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:45.000 How could we initiate getting rid of that resistance and creating an environment of of partnership? 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:58.000 How could we initially start at a new place to say that I'm here to save you as opposed to for Forbes manage you? 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:04.000 There is no management anymore, and it's more about the leadership validation by action. 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:23.000 Could you help us to understand how we can bring this notion this this feeling service that look i'm here to help I'm not here to to leave or manage i'm here to just see how I can have well I think that 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:29.000 you that's the thing, and it's 1 one person one relationship at a time, right? 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:47.000 And so it's asking more questions then giving answers it's it's having creating that space for collaboration, and for being open of their ideas, even when you I don't think they might they might not work right and 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000 also there's recognizing that you can't change other people. you have to have agreement that that's what you want your work with you. 00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:06.000 Right. So it doesn't do a city good to go in this directive. Managers often say the way you're interacting with teaching is not the way you should be. you should be. 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:23.000 You should be empowering people that Well, they thank you for your opinion. I didn't ask for right, and so you wanna build that relationship with them, so that they they trust you and they're open to your influence and because you're 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:34.000 modeling the way to interact with people, they're seeing the impact of your employees, and they're hearing how people feel safe with you, and how they are respecting your opinion, and how they're wanting help. 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:51.000 From you. And so as you start to model that in the culture people pick enough, and they're like, okay, So i'm. Now, i'm going the new way of being right by by not by treating people with this different type of respect by seeing people 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:58.000 as comfortable it's it's all these things right it's not trying to force your own way on other people. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:10.000 And when you model this, they pick it up. and then and when you build relationships with people, they feel they feel safe to say, you know, hey? 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.000 I'd like to i'd like to be more effective as a leader? 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.000 And how do you want to do that? And do you want feedback from me along the way? right? 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:35.000 And when they agree to have that relationship now you have the open door to say, You know I noticed that you tend to be really directive, and when I put it, seeing as I look at the big pictures when you come into a meeting, everybody knows stop talking, and they just 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:44.000 listen to You have ideas What do you think? Sound a year? 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:52.000 Excellent. Thank you very much. so overcoming resistance. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:03.000 Another This is another piece of how you create that environment. where it's in order to create sustainable change, you have to relate which control. 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:08.000 I don't need to control everything it's not my layer of the highway. 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:16.000 I don't have to have everything figured out we follow my perfect plan for how the world's gonna be a better place. 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:27.000 This is a complex environment. any kind of company you're working on There's so many moving parts and so really pretty planned solutions. 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:35.000 It's more inspective adapted it's it's, emerging ideas, experimentation, right. 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.000 So here's a problem we're trying to solve it's a complex problem. 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.000 There's many root causes I don't know how to solve it. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:52.000 There's not one easy answer. So let's do some experiments and see what works in this environment. and let's emerge as we go along. 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.000 As we learn more we shift right it's not a matter of making one change. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:05.000 It's a small change and see what works and then see what else works, and see what else works until we're heading in the right direction. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:13.000 You're not gonna go, from 0. to 100 and you're gonna go from 0 to 0 point 5 in its small incremental rooms. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:18.000 And looking back, you can see well, we've actually made a lot of good shifts all the time. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:27.000 So you want to link with the control of forcing everything to change and the responsibility of doing it for them. 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:33.000 People need to change themselves, and so if you're telling them what to do and how to change. 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:40.000 And all that stuff it it doesn't Yes, you can get compliance. But that's all you're ever gonna get. 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:57.000 And so directive dictatorship or management gets compliance as leaders being partnership and there's a movement of doing it together, right? 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:06.000 They get, they create, sustainable change because there's an understanding of this is just experimentation, and what works in one group might not work. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:15.000 In other words, I mean just because you didn't experiment with one team and this great thing they they're doing great doesn't mean you take what they're doing. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:26.000 And saying now that's best practice everybody has to do that that generally doesn't work, that group did something and it worked for them because of their particular circumstance. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:32.000 No, it's a good practice, and If others have a similar problem, and this solves the problem great. 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:37.000 Here's information you're more than welcome to experiment with it and that's fine. 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:44.000 And if everybody finds it good and they all adopt it great, but that's different than saying you have to do it this way. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:51.000 We all need to be doing the exact same thing we all don't have the exact same numbers, and every system is different. 00:38:51.000 --> 00:39:09.000 So there's going to be different solutions and so the way you create. The same advantage is by letting people take over and ownership means they've got responsibility, accountability and empowerment to be able to make the decisions and 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:17.000 make mistakes, and then so it's giving them that and letting them. 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:25.000 They're letting them have the because when you have your own idea in your own plan. he's already buying it. 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.000 You Don't have to consent you don't have to convince anybody right? 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:41.000 You're motivated to get it done there's no reason. And so what that's those are ways that you create sustainable change, and we're through a coaching of her to move through a partnership approach 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:55.000 then by trying to force change. and then the next thing about sustainable changes, what would success looks like? 00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:01.000 We often want to do things we want to change. We want to change the way our projects being delivered. 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:16.000 We want to change the way people are interacting but we Don't know we can't identify or haven't identified. Yet how will I know when i'm there things need to be better great? what does that mean when when they're better 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:26.000 what we have, how will we know? to me a good formula is to identify what's the current state? 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:33.000 This is where we are right now, what it looks like and in its brokenness, or in it's not best not best condition. 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 What's our dream for? How we want it to be so future state? 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:43.000 Our desired state. This is how we want it to be great. 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:51.000 How will you measure progress and success? Hey, How would you know you're moving in the right direction? 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:57.000 What are some things, and it doesn't mean necessarily you have to have data measured data. 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.000 It can be. What are the actions that you're gonna see from people? 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:05.000 What are you gonna hear people saying, What are people going to be? 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:19.000 Feeling and communicating right it It it's how we know you and so we have a ways to never been able to identify. if we're moving in the right direction. 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:27.000 Using hypothesis is a great way to experiment, and part of that leadership and the leadership. 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Mindset is one of experimentation and learning and failure right? 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:38.000 And so when we build a hypothesis for well, this is the problem we want to solve. 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:55.000 And we think if we do this it's gonna give us the results we want, and we'll know that my measuring this this this: right now you've got an experiment to run and you can see if it works and adjust the experiment as 00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:09.000 needed right? And so this is how you create sustainable change not only because you're you're doing things in a more strategic way, because people good morning. we don't just run around fighting fighters from place to place we 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:15.000 actually think through one of the problems we want to solve and how do we think we can solve them? 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:31.000 And how we know making progress right and it's really important because if you don't do that, you're just gonna keep doing all kinds of things, and you'll be ready yourself, for having but you where are you going 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:35.000 there's a quote from the cheshire cat that says if you don't know where you're going. 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:47.000 Every room get you there great and so you gotta know where You're going to make sure you're getting to the right place to often. They don't know where we're going as agile leaders We don't know where 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:59.000 we're going because we haven't stopped to ask for and the problem for trying to solve it right and so part of the actual leadership Mindset is not i'm giving you solutions it's i'm making problems. 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.000 Transparent, so we can figure out how to solve so again. 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:12.000 It's a different way of thinking 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:23.000 Yeah, I think the last piece of this that I have is thanks, pat, oops and 2. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:36.000 The fact that there are different types in different levels of engagement as an angelist, and in what companies are trying to do as they get better in the sample space. 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:43.000 Often. what people are looking for, what companies are looking for is just processing installation. 00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:49.000 Come and help us do scrum or you're you're moving from this world in this world, you're not a product company. 00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:03.000 You're now on a scrum team and and so all they want is to adopt process which doesn't really give you the the benefits of of adwords in a in a big way. 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yes, it can help Teams learn how to manage their work a little bit better. but outside of the team there's going to be a lot of constraints that don't work with it. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:22.000 I've been a lot of organizations over my years where, like the one half of the only not what happened to organization, but say a project or something. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:34.000 We want to build into a product on one side it's it's waterfall, so it's all the requirements gathering and upfront planning and all that stuff. 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.000 And then they then that goes to the adults even they won't run scrum. 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:45.000 So those 2 things. Yes, you can run sc but you're not gonna get the full effects of it. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.000 Because the rest of the system is doing something different. and So you get that part requirements document. 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:58.000 And now you're gonna try to make user stories out of it And so it's a little bit weird. 00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:03.000 And and, by the way, user stories are not a requirement of storm at all. 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:07.000 This product backload items. so maybe you use something different. 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:26.000 Then there's agile adoption which goes beyond the team level, when it's more how about the engineering and product management groups where they're beginning other to work together to develop to to work and a product 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:44.000 mindset rather than a project like. And so this adult adoption is how we deliver products, how we think about products, and how we, how the culture and how the technical environments in the process, and all that stuff changes to help get us 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:53.000 there. This is the stuff that's outside of just the team enables the fact that you're doing scrum to be better right scroll by itself and isolation. 00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:04.000 It can bring a little bit of help but it doesn't get very far agile adoption can bring a lot of help because it's it's impacting a wider system and you're thinking about it from a bigger 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:13.000 space. you're gonna run into a ceiling where you're finding things beyond product and engineering that are getting into wreck. 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:25.000 My funding knowledge. Hey, zoom! funding projects rather than funding We're finding we're funding doing a a feature rather than finding a 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:33.000 Often the problems run into compensation. We build agile teams, and then we rate everybody on their performance. 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:42.000 Should you as individual contributors, and we put them against themselves on the bell curve? And then we wonder why teams are not working together as teams? 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:46.000 Well, could it be because we told them if they do that you're not gonna get as much money at the end of the year. Right? 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:55.000 So there's things that are outside of that that are really where the theual transformation spaces and it's inner life. 00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.000 We're going to change all the pieces of company our legal contracts with vendors. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:10.000 Our the way we do marketing and sales and the way they interact with engineering instead of like We sold something in promise that we would have it next week. 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:23.000 It's what is it that we're building great that's what you can sell right, and so the only people who are able to give timelines and sizes and estimates are the people who are actually doing work and 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:27.000 So there's this some just being aware that there's different levels. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:37.000 Companies are trying to do it, and getting some insight into Well, what's my company to do with what is the work that you want doing in your company? 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:42.000 Or they really just adopting scrum or something like that. 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:56.000 Are they trying to really make bigger changes where you're gonna start to see things like funding and things like doing feature, mapping and story mapping instead of get charts is that What's happening? 00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:01.000 Organization. or is it even bigger than that? right and maybe They're doing? 00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:09.000 Issues, and they're switching from some of the previous 8 roles to 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:21.000 Some different more adult adult based roles there's a bunch of different things that could be going and as project manages. 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:26.000 Don't let anybody tell you 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:32.000 There are rules for you. Some of those might be handled and some of them might be Project manageable right. 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:45.000 There's still a need to have to end who's who's looking at the big picture of this thing right There's still, if you're in an organization that does scaling of some sort especially like safe or whatever there's 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:59.000 the release train Engineer and the at the different levels that is to me of my project Manager will right because it's it's what you do You're happy if you're helping people to collaborate you're helping to make sure that the 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.000 things are moving slums through the system you're helping to connect what's happening. 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:11.000 Normal organization took yoga you're having to manage dependencies and the whole those things that you're not. 00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:20.000 It's a perfect fit if you want to move to now maybe is not like only one team or something like that. 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:29.000 And so there's a lot of places for project managers in this and the world, and some of those will have the same job time. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:37.000 Some of them won't it's really a matter of what is it that you wanna do? 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:46.000 And how? what's the impact you want to have I often see companies rather like your project manager that means not yours from master. 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:57.000 Not necessarily. if you are more interested in in the past so getting things built and delivered, and managing the like all the pieces getting done. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:03.000 Maybe you're a better product of work electronic manager and 00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:07.000 These being a scrum master is more about. Do you want to develop people to be high performing? 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:12.000 And do you want to know what the human side of it in in? And so 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:22.000 I find that Project managers often get really well, into the product management sign, because they know the product so well, because they've been digging into it all this time. 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:31.000 Anything else right. So there's a lot of different things that you might choose to do if you shift into an actual model. 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:51.000 And I Don't think there's only one answer right So any thoughts, questions, observations that you have not brought up that you like to come on gift talent, Cherry she loves challenges talk something say something actually 00:50:51.000 --> 00:51:03.000 I have i'm I'm holding my prairie you talked about the at the people don't quit their job. 00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:11.000 People could managers. We don't we quit managers and co-workers. 00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:23.000 Yes, and in the world of project management we've heard time to time I've heard many times that in in specific organization. 00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:45.000 They say, the agrar Doesn't work in our organization. and they just shut us up up front because of their different experience with different, so to speak, agile leaders in project product management level. 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:54.000 So how could we initiate this this time as a project program program? 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:59.000 Even portfolio manager going into a new organization. 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:17.000 How could we start this change as mindset, and start from the ground and bring up this collaboration among our team and members? 00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:30.000 To me The easiest way is forget about adults from the Here's all the terms we have to use, and the things we have to do, because I think most people have experienced is someone trying to push Something on them. 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.000 At the box Right? Oh, we gotta do scrum. We gotta do stand up. 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:40.000 We gotta do this. We gotta do this, you know, told me my problems right. 00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:45.000 Forget about that, and talk about what's the problems we need to solve. 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:52.000 And in that process, If you know something from randomly let's bring that in. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.000 I don't care if you call them an agile I don't care if you call it scrum. 00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:01.000 I don't care if you call it a daily scrum or a stand up, or a huddle It doesn't matter. 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:08.000 The question is, does it want right? and then what will happen is They'll start to see that I have a problem. 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:14.000 You brought a solution, and it worked eventually. it may be admiral, and it may be ago-ish. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:19.000 But what matters is this is fun to solve that we getting the business results not? 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:23.000 Are we handle is never, ever, ever, ever, ever drivers people. 00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:31.000 If Angel is the goal you're doing it well paddle is a solution. 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:33.000 And so if you've got a solution and you don't know the problem. 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:39.000 Stop and find out what the Yes. 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Absolutely. May I? Yeah, absolutely sharing You great You I was just so keen up with what he was saying, taking tons of notes because oh, yeah, lots of people are talking. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:03.000 They're talking like from the book how it should be instead of how it is. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:10.000 And you'll give me exactly like the questions that I had in my mind how the real life is, and what the people are. 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:19.000 And you answered so many questions. Thank you you're welcome and I mean if you think about it, let's be real. 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:26.000 Those people are gonna write a book and tell you about how they did didn't work right. 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:34.000 They're gonna tell you about with did work and some of that is. well, this little piece worked over here in this little piece worked over there. 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:42.000 But i'm just gonna tell it as one big story so it sounds like I've got the whole big thing, and it all worked out right, and it's perfect for me. 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:50.000 It's like I I had a coaching session yesterday with someone, and she was saying how I get on social media. 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:56.000 And there's these perfect parents and they tell me how to do parenting, and i'm such an old bar, and I can't do that. 00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:01.000 Nobody tell you how hard it is right because they don't tell you and they yelled at their 40 or more. 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:08.000 They only told they always tell you what you should be doing right and half of That's just in their head. 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:19.000 Great. let's talk about renewalities you still need to have a model that's still because you need to pick up pieces from there. Otherwise you're not on the right road right? 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:24.000 Solve the problems that exist. All models are useful and none of them are. 00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:36.000 Yeah, Facebook life. Yeah, all right, and we're right at the end I David, I know you'll probably have some closing things to do. 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:43.000 So i'll hand it back home with you Oh, my God, I had a question to go ahead. 00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:48.000 Yeah, Thank you. Oh, thank you, cherie. I just put it in the chat as well. 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:53.000 Can a product owner be a project manager In general? 00:55:53.000 --> 00:56:03.000 It is like a, you know, very overlapping kind of role like you just mentioned as product owner can be a project product manager. 00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:09.000 However, a project manager can be a product owner, and vice versa. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.000 In traditional agile frameworks that's not an acceptable Norm. 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:17.000 So. what do you do? You have any thoughts on that, please? 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:23.000 It is 2 different roles, right? and so if your project manager and a product only. 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:28.000 Then you actually have 2 jobs and I hope they're paying you 2 salaries, because it's gonna hurt really 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:34.000 And so also the way you'll be doing is transitioning into one. 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:45.000 We're staying in the other can you do 2 jobs sure I've seen a lot of scrum masters that were also project managers, and they had 2 jobs, and but it sure wasn't fun because they were only getting one 00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:54.000 salary right? And so they have these these that are projects and meetings that are scrub master, individually confusing and really frustrating. 00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:58.000 So can you store if you can do 2 jobs, Do I recommend it? 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:16.000 I kind of recommend you, do, Wendy, if you can lot of openings or a lot of job descriptions have this like, you know, they kind of integrate both having like requirements coming up with stories user stories translation translating the requirements 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:24.000 into users stories and Dod and all of that. And then it also is okay, cross-functional impacts or coordination. 00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:39.000 So when it comes to coordination that's when like you know, and also maintaining gans charts. So it doesn't really make sense to have both of them married together. that's why I was asking this question So you definitely 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.000 say that they are too isolated professions as such. 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:53.000 Yeah, just robust real quick. So I can handle the with what's happening is they're not doing a full transition modalities. 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:59.000 And so it makes it confusing. and so They probably just need to figure out which direction you want to go. 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:14.000 Then they're not doing it Well, alright David sorry yeah that that that was good. And as you as you have seen, we're going to have the the the video record of today's to everybody and quite frankly I comment 00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:32.000 let's go back and and watch it again, because she has touched so many different areas from respect to to the environment setting to how to blend into coldaching into the not consulting. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:42.000 So thank you, Sherry. Thank you for setting our our agile, minded project managers to to the right. 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:47.000 Well, we have been in the right pattern we don't we don't have any prescription. 00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:02.000 We are utilizing different frameworks in agile so many thanks to you and everyone else here, and looking forward to seeing you anytime anywhere, I have a chance. 00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:07.000 Show you thank you you're welcome y'all feel free to pick with me on again. 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:11.000 I put my email in the chat and my website in the chat. 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:20.000 If you need any help with angel training or coaching for your organizations that are trying to figure out how to do this transition feel free to reach out. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:28.000 We're here to help you yay thank you everybody thank you so much. 00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:55.000 Thank you. Great meet up who have organized it. Yes, thank you.